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Community Thief Guide: Difference between revisions
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*Everyone calls this dagger "anus", and that is why you should make it. By everyone I mean me, but hey.<br />This weapon excels both while performing skillchains and for turning your brain off to spam with, thanks to its TP Bonus and STP+.<br />Given how easy it is to make now, and given how well it preforms at R0. This is the only Ultimate Weapon dagger I feel a casual THFs should go make. |
*Everyone calls this dagger "anus", and that is why you should make it. By everyone I mean me, but hey.<br />This weapon excels both while performing skillchains and for turning your brain off to spam with, thanks to its TP Bonus and STP+. This also means you ''can not over hold TP'' with this weapon when you apply it to that coveted position of smooth brain spamming. So try not to WS over a TP Bonus total of 2k. A little less is fine, and if it would mean missing out on a SC. Then it be even better not to hold TP at all.<br />Given how easy it is to make now, and given how well it preforms at R0. This is the only Ultimate Weapon dagger I feel a casual THFs should go make. Aeneas and a Tauret will cover your needs on THF without going down the equipment rabbit hole. |
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:With Aeneas equipped, THF has the ability to either create solo [[Umbra]] or [[Radiance]], but this is more often a |
:With Aeneas equipped, THF has the ability to either create solo [[Umbra]] or [[Radiance]], but this is more often a situational need rather than a mandated playstyle of the weapon. That being said, with buffs such as Allies Roll or SCD+ equipment, Aeneas can bring out powerful Umbra's. The Radiances's would be a matter of the skillchain damage given how weak Exenterator is, but being a later step in the chain helps a little bit at least. Skillchains represent the potential for a huge damage increase, but more often players tend to look for a way to brute force through things instead. Aeneas is both a respectable brute force weapon, ''and'' an excellent weapon to skillchain with. |
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:{{color|light|Radiance:}} |
:{{color|light|Radiance:}} |
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:*[[Rudra's Storm]] → [[Mandalic Stab]] (Fusion) → [[Exenterator]] (Light) → [[Exenterator]] (Radiance) |
:*[[Rudra's Storm]] → [[Mandalic Stab]] (Fusion) → [[Exenterator]] (Light) → [[Exenterator]] (Radiance) |
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*Fuck yeah, augments!<br /> |
*Fuck yeah, augments!<br /> |
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:Mythics in general received the largest boost |
:Mythics in general received the largest boost and leveling of the playing field when it comes to R15s. First off, to get it out of the way. Yes, it does push out our strongest {{icon|fusion sc}} Fusion WS. Then again, it is our ''only'' Fushion WS. However will you apply such earth-shattering information?! ''I can't even fathom''.<br />Furthermore, while Vajra takes less of a DPS hit from a full Malignance DT set than the other daggers. THF still does have all that native TA as well as other MA gear, and the AM3 doesn't really help with our WSs. Malignance alone doesn't abruptly flip the landscape of a competent THF with Aeneas or Twashtar in favor of Vajra. No matter how thoroughly parroted into a platitude 5/5 Malignance is.<br /> However, your Malignance set and its obvious utility does level the playing field. To the point where you could potentially write off such a potential DPS Vajra win on paper. As being edged out due to the fact that AM3 maintenance and landing consistent SA/TAs is not to be taken for granted. Despite any of this, it stands to reason that there is a more justification to forge a Vajra first before the far less versatile Twashtar.<br /> Now, as far as the less beaten path goes. Yes, this weapon does still lag behind during those moments where you are fully buffed. Which is to say that you are capping attack, spamming Rudras, and pretending to be all the WAR-esque THF that you can be. Hopefully, that is not why you are reading this though.<br />All in all, Vajra excels in three notable situations. |
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#SkIlLcHaInInG.<br />Vajra provides a powerful {{icon|fusion sc}} Fusion option, but the extra 30% critical damage bonus to SA/TA allows Vajra to provide the strongest stacked SC closers. Yes-- stronger. This ''does'' happen. |
#SkIlLcHaInInG.<br />Vajra provides a powerful {{icon|fusion sc}} Fusion option, but the extra 30% critical damage bonus to SA/TA allows Vajra to provide the strongest stacked SC closers. Yes-- ''stronger''. This ''does'' happen. |
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#Severely low [[PDIF|pDif]].<br />The buffed Mandalic Stab is really great for times when you are not anywhere near capping attack, and R15 excels at this over Tauret. This '''will''' happen. |
#"Severely" low [[PDIF|pDif]].<br />The buffed Mandalic Stab is really great for times when you are not anywhere near capping attack, and R15 excels at this over Tauret. This '''will''' happen. |
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#Underestimating your [[PDIF|pDif]].<br />Just because you are buffed, doesn't mean you are capping attack. Vajra can bridge that gap while potentially |
#Underestimating your [[PDIF|pDif]].<br />Just because you are buffed, doesn't mean you are capping attack. Vajra can bridge that gap while potentially utilizing [[Pdl]] bonuses as well. This '''''will''''' happen. |
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*Everyone's favorite pie server, and in-law stabber at an American Thanksgiving.<br />R15 really recaptured the Twatswatter in everyone's imagination. Well, that and [[Centovente]] |
*Everyone's favorite pie server, and in-law stabber at an American Thanksgiving.<br />R15 really recaptured the Twatswatter in everyone's imagination. Well, that and the TP Bonus of [[Centovente]] in the offhand. In a buffed to the 9s sort of situation, Twash/Cento will represent your maximum of raw DPS output potential if you you can overcome that 225 accuracy difference from using it.<br />So be all the THF that you can be while you chase after daddy's love on the parse. He may just come back from that vacation to pick up some milk and cigs. Only if you replace the lack of his love for your mommy with your XI parse numbers though. |
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Word to the wise, but unless you start the fight with 3k TP, do not aim for AM3. Instead you should have a constant stream of AM1. During SA and TP overflow, the irregular AM2. AM3 is wasted damage potential, ''especially'' with Centovente. Otherwise, this dagger is straight forward.<br />Do not mistake the importance of your pDif though when it comes to Rudras spam, ergo the focus of this weapon. If things aren't lining up in your favor for buffs/debuffs then even Tauret/Gleti's would be a superior combo to Twash or Aeneas.<br />Ultimately Twash is rather one dimensional. Though, the dominate dimension of general attention, and that is unambiguous damage. |
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*R0 Aeneas/Twash or Terion +1 R15, Gletis R<sup>anything</sup>,''should'' rather easily out preform R0 Twash/Cento. Make sure you augment your Twashtar. |
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'''[[Aeneas]]''' {{aug|15}}<br /> |
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[[File:Aeneas_description.png|link=]] |
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:{{aug}} DMG: +6<br />Exenterator: Damage +10%<br />Accuracy +30 & Magic Accuracy +30 |
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Please make sure you read the R0 description first. |
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*Does this dagger even still exist? I thought [https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/248/#3601720 "''we''"] all theory crafted and "parsed in game" <small>("''tested''?"lol)</small> that Twashtar was the best? [https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/248/#3601627 "I thought that was general consensus <nowiki>[here]</nowiki> too?"] |
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:Now, I am not sure what world we went from in the years this guide has been around. Where to the question of daggers, the answer ad nauseum was a rather universal parroting of "Aeneas/Twash". Now the same birds are squawking in a way that leads the average inquisitive player to feel compelled to make Twash or be a weak Thief. It takes on a life of its own in the community. A tone has also emerged amongst all the muddled banter. One over the ''years'' of the guide being "off", "wrong", or "mistaken".<br />''Yes'', Centovente changes things, and my harping of an aforementioned world didn't once include that dagger.<br />''Yes'', R15 Twash gets a 10% boost to Rudra's Storm.<br />''Yes'', I am going to be comparing R15 Aeneas to R15 Twash because that is fair.<br />Lets break this down a bit though. Before the increase in cynicism upon myself from this guide gets the best of me. |
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<small>'''Peanut Gallery''': "''Look at all that DEX on Twashtar! Rudra's is like 80% DEX! Twash must be much stronger!''"</small> |
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*Weapon damage and Rudra's 80% DEX modifier are added to each other at the same time in the WS damage equation. That is then multiplied by your TP (fTP), and then to the ratio of your attack over the monster's defense (pDif). That is a picture of your WS damage in a nutshell. (Weapon Damage + fSTR + WSC) x fTP x pDif. That Rudra's bonus on Twash is added on after the fact. |
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:*Since these are added together first. 80% of that extra 20 DEX over Aeneas's 18 extra base damage doesn't matter as much as you might think it does. |
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::*Increasing a smaller multiplier in a multi-step damage equation generally helps more than increasing a larger multiplier further. In this case your smaller multipliers are fTP and pDif. |
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::*For Twash/Gleti vs Aeneas/Twash it is only a difference of +10 for Rudra's or Shark Bite, +3 for Mandalic, and -1 for Evis. All essentially in favor of Twash, but this is not a powerful factor compared to fTP and pDif. You could honestly pretend the DEX/AGI and Weapon Damage of the weapons don't even exist, and the combo delays are equal. Twash/Cento is not in dispute here. |
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:::*This all changes for Aeneas/Gleti's. Which you should use if you aren't capping attack or are making Radiance.However, I don't believe it really changes the overall picture. |
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::::*Unless you have a bad COR that crookeds a Samurai Roll instead of Chaos Roll in such a situation. Hey, now.. |
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*Now, [[Rudra's Storm]] fTP is 5.0, 10.19, and 13 at 1k, 2k, and 3k respectively, and scales with TP between values. |
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:*The crux of either dagger combo is ''ultimately'' how long you hold TP. |
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::*Holding TP past 2,000 diminishes the gains from fTP for Rudra's. So you gain more DPS by WSing rather than holding further. Especially if you can SC. |
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:*Aeneas gains TP ''more'' than a whole attack round faster than Twash/Gleti's on average. Thanks to the STP and TP Bonus allowing you to WS sooner. |
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::*This provides a psuedo offset to the 10% boost to Rudras Storm from Twashtar. You ideally are WSing more often with Aeneas than with Twash. |
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:::*Even if Twash produces stronger Rudra's. Both weapons formidable for general DPS. |
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<small>'''Peanut Gallery''': "''But Empyrean Aftermath!!!1''"</small> |
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*What about it? Your total DPS ratio between white damage to WS damage is lopsided towards WS damage. Chasing after AM3 is going to cost your overall DPS, and AM1 with some AM2 doesn't really move the needle. Your gear choices would be far more significant than your empyrean AM. |
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*This is all without even discussing skillchains. Which is a rather open ended topic. I sat down maping out some theoretical examples on Umbra and Radiance compared to other daggers. Only to stop and ask myself why the ''fuck'' I was even doing this. Honestly, as long as you keep what is said in the guide. Then you should be capable of evaluating the value of skillchains and multi-stepping.<br />The best part of Aeneas is that it is ideally suited towards multi-stepping while also being able to spam Rudras otherwise. Exenterator needs any boost it can get, and R15 is one. Yes, you should carry the {{Imgpop|[[Sacro Mantle]]|Sacro Mantle description.png|link=}} and Nyame Path B. You should do that for any dagger. Start asking your COR to ditch Chaos Roll for Allies when you are capping your pDif, and go to town.<br /> While often overlooked, using the Obi according to the day/weather of your SC damage will go further too. Keep in mind that this depends on targeting the elemental weakness of your enemy as a Dark or Light SC is not just light or dark damage.<br />See the [[Resist#Resistance_Rank|Resist aka "SDT"]] page for more on that. |
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'''TL;DR''': |
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*Mandau still sucks. |
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*Aeneas is great at ''SkIlLcHaInInG''. R15 is even better. |
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*R15 Twash and R15 Aeneas preforming Rudra's Storms is a competitive combo, and could be considered a DPS wash overall. Look, the dev team balanced something! |
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*If you are capping attack then Aeneas/Twash ''should'' out preform Twashtar/Gleti. |
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*If you are not capping attack then Aeneas/Gleti ''should'' preform closely to Twash/Gleti. |
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:*I would give the edge to R15 Twash there. |
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::*I am going to put Aeneas/Gleti in the unattack capped unstacked Rudra's set though, just to fuck with people who don't read the guide. |
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*If you are holding TP, and not WSing efficiently then Twash will win, obviously. |
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:*Don't be afraid to WS at lower TP to SC with another player. That is also part of how you take advantage of Aeneas. |
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*R15 Twash is a superior combo to R15 Aeneas if: |
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:*You are offhanding Centovente, spamming Rudras, and are not inhibited by that 225 accuracy loss. |
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::*You WS ASAP to make optimal use of the offhand. |
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::*I have witnesses far too many THFs hitting 2-3k TP with Twash/Cento before WSing. |
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:::*Just because you see that you did the most powerful WS numbers. Doesn't mean your overall DPS is reflecting your suboptimal WS frequency. |
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*R15 Vajra/Centovente is a superior combo to everything if: |
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*You are spamming Mandalic while also rather attack starved and are not inhibited by the accuracy loss. |
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*The order I would recommend a THF create daggers in is [[Kaja Knife]]/[[Shijo]] D → [[Tauret]]/[[Gleti's Knife]] → [[Aeneas]]/[[Gleti's Knife]] → Gleti's R20 → [[Vajra]] R15 → [[Twashtar]] R15 → [[Aeneas]] R15. |
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:*Stop at Aeneas in that sequence if you aren't trying to come to content as a THF over other jobs. |
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Revision as of 00:23, 5 December 2021
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Forum Discussion
Feel free to ask questions about Thief or the guide in the Forum Discussion.
General Information
Thief is a non-buff support damage dealer in FFXI. It will largely be played as a damage dealer and specifically a skillchain closer. Thief also is capable of placing hate on a player of their choosing. As well as stealing hate from other players; to help maintain control of battle.
Roles
The two most common roles is that of damage over time by dual wielding daggers and gathering rare items due to the Treasure Hunter ability.
Abilities and Traits
Your high damage will be from using the tried and true Sneak Attack and Trick Attack. In the old days you would stack them and use both at the same time. Nowadays it's better to use each with a weapon skill since you can build TP quickly and help the tank maintain hate.
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Treasure Hunter
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- See also: Volte Armor Set
- During Dark Matter campaigns, Herculean armor may also commonly receive TH+ augments of +1-2.
Look, we all seem to act like Treasure Hunter is some mystery, but it is not.
- A THF also must be on the hate list for TH to be active. It can't just stand there and give the effect.
- TH is actually a debuff. So it is safe to say that the Thief must act offensively against the target to apply the effect, and not simply gain hate with a non-offensive ability or spell on a party member with enmity.
- This means you don't have to melee, but you must use something like Bully or Provoke. Collaborator, Warcry, etc will get you on the list, but not apply TH.
- This can be seen in Voidwatch where TH grants a bonus to uncapped lights. The bonus only occurs if the Thief acts offensively against the target, and not for being in party or idly using something on a party member with hate.
- You may remove TH equipment and retain the current effect.
- If the monster goes idle then TH is lost.
- TH caps at +8 on equipment. This includes your trait of +3.
- Procs increase TH further to 12, and upwards of 14 with Job Point Gifts.
- TH makes things drop more frequently, stop nitpicking how much it matters.
- Here is a the official SE post on TH. It won't mean anything to most players. All you need to know is what was just said prior.
- If an item shares the same drop slot then Treasure Hunter will not increase drop rate.
- This is rare, but examples include Defending Ring and Omen bodies.
- Stop being weird and making up rumors:
- A THF doesn't need to land the last hit.
- No special item helps with TH or drop rates other than TH+ items.
- Moon phases are for boobs in tinfoil hats.
- Dying on THF doesn't reset TH value
Procing TH
- Multiple Thieves may work in tandem to each proc and raise the same TH level of a foe.
- No matter how much TH+ equipment you wear, you may not proc higher than TH 8 → 9 for the first proc.
- Wearing a total Treasure Hunter level equal to or lower than the current TH level on an opponent decreases the chance of procing TH.
- You must have at least a level higher than the current level applied to increase the rate of TH procs.
- Proc occurences caps at a set rate.[1] Wearing more TH+ than the next level will not increase the rate it increases.
- This fixed proc rate of TH increase is not static for all levels. TH proc rates are capped at a fixed rate, but that set rate decreases with each level increase on TH. [2]
- Those two official posts are a perfect example of why players are confused. SE's messaging has lead to confusion, but now that we know, it is simple.
- There is an increased chance to proc TH while using Sneak Attack or Trick Attack as well as stacking them with Feint.
- Nonetheless, you need to be above the current level to avoid a decrease in proc rate.
- TH may proc on a WS, but you wont receive a message.
- TH Only procs on the first hit of an attack round.
Merits
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Name | Description | Level | Notes |
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Flee Recast | Shorten recast time by 10 seconds. | 0/5 | This is not really a needed upgrade and the points are better spent elsewhere. |
Hide Recast | Shorten recast time by 10 seconds. | 0/5 | This is not really a needed upgrade and the points are better spent elsewhere. |
Sneak Attack Recast | Shorten recast time by 2 seconds. | 0/5~5/5 | You may prefer SA or TA or to do a little of each. Ideally you would want SA 5/5. |
Trick Attack Recast | Shorten recast time by 2 seconds. | 0/5~5/5 | Situational, it is often easier to connect TA than SA. Let your logic set you free. |
Triple Attack Rate | Increase triple attack rate by 1 percent. | 5/5 | Max this out. |
Group 2 | |||
Assassin's Charge | Will triple your next attack. Recast: 5min. Increase chance of fourfold attack by 5 percent. | 0/5 | This JA didn't scale well. We TP so quickly, and TA does little for WS damage, it's not worth it. |
Feint | Your next attack will greatly reduce an enemy's evasion. Recast: 2min. Increase chance of Treasure Hunter level up by 25 percent. | 4/5 | Helps with Treasurer Hunter gain. So good idea to max this. Can go 5/5 and lose an Ambush if you want. |
Aura Steal | Adds a Dispel effect to Steal. Occasionally absorbs dispelled effect. Increase absorb rate by 20 percent. | 1/5 | Always go 1/5 to add more utility to the job. Dispelling an Ice Spikes move can solve headaches for you and the group. |
Ambush | Grants an accuracy bonus to melee and ranged attacks from behind an enemy. Increase accuracy bonus by 3. | 5/5 | This isn't amazing, but a passive minor bonus is better than nothing. |
Support Jobs
This is the highest damage option for sub jobs if your attack isn't capped due to Berserk. However, it lacks Invisible, Sneak, damage mitigation, or healing, and as such is only viable when you have reliable healing or are fighting a monster with no Area of affect moves/spells/abilities.
Enmity shedding with High Jump aside, the WS Damage Boost trait is what makes this the best sub for DDing while attack capped. The Conserve TP isn't terrible either given that Double Attack as a trait is weak for THF.
This offers sufficient utility, as well as healing should you be doing an event where trusts are not allowed or there are some shall we say— issues.
Also provides Sneak and Invisible. This is one of the main subs for soloing as a Thf. While leveling, the time to start using Dancer as your Support is at 40 so you have access to Dual Wield.
- Ninja
- Shadows, Subtle Blow.
Sometimes you just need damage or TP move mitigation. This sub also offers sneak and invisible. Since Thief doesn't get native Dual Wield until Level 83, subbing Ninja starting at Level 20 is the best option until you reach 40. You may then use Dancer as your support.
From 50+ /NIN will still provide another tier of Dual wield until 90/98 when a third is granted and then natively gained.
This is the defensive subjob of choice if shadows aren't viable, which is a lot of endgame content. Magic defense bonus will mean you take less damage from all sources of magic and runes will offer you 58 resistance of an element of your choice.
Thief (as well as Dancer) may also push upwards of a 20% parry rate with this sub, Turms Leggings +1, and a parry +5 augment on an Ambuscade cape. Pretty neat.
Equipment
Weapons
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Ultimate Weapons
Augmented REAM Weapon Notes: For all intents and purposes not much has really changed. I will get around to an updated write-up sometime. If I don't then you guys will never stop being dopes about "BUT THE GUIDE SAYS AENEAS????!" on AH.com. --Spicyryan (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2021 (EST) | |
Augment Rank 0
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Augment Rank 15
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Word to the wise, but unless you start the fight with 3k TP, do not aim for AM3. Instead you should have a constant stream of AM1. During SA and TP overflow, the irregular AM2. AM3 is wasted damage potential, especially with Centovente. Otherwise, this dagger is straight forward.
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Please make sure you read the R0 description first.
Peanut Gallery: "Look at all that DEX on Twashtar! Rudra's is like 80% DEX! Twash must be much stronger!"
Peanut Gallery: "But Empyrean Aftermath!!!1"
When TL;DR:
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Prioritizing Equipment
There are two main sets a THF needs. The first major one is the TP set in which you first want to cap your delay reduction. The next are your WS sets, and obviously you should have some DT sets as a third priority if you want to be valued. Woah, lets cool it on that sick elitist rhetoric, right?
Well, if you didn't care then you wouldn't be reading any advice on being better. So, dont be that guy, and make some defensive sets for physical, magical, magic evasion, evasion, etc. As long as you cap Damage Taken you can always go back later and min max out some sets, but have something worthwhile to resort to. Fortunately, there are sets below for you!
So your TP set on THF generally requires 26% equipment haste, 44% magic haste, and a certain amount of dual wield based on the buffs you have. You can go to Attack Speed for the more intricate numbers. If you're fully buffed though, you need DW+11, or DW+6 if you've acquired 550 JP.
After you've reached that (or very close) you need to stack accuracy until you are around the accuracy cap for the content you're doing. This is going to vary, but sometimes other players or pages on the wiki will explain the accuracy required. Parsing with third party tools is the best way to get this right otherwise.
Next step is to stack Triple Attack and Store TP. I'd value +2~2.5 STP similar to 1% Triple Attack. This comparison is going to change based on your gear and buffs, as the more TA you get, the more STP helps, and vice versa, so try for a general balance around that ratio.
If you can't decide between two pieces after all of that is considered, choose the one with more magic evasion or defensive stats, as you can't deal any damage while dead.
For weapon skills you largely need one type of gear, which is to stack DEX and Weapon skill damage+. Rudra's Storm and Mandalic Stab are our two strongest WS and both scale nicely with just those two main stats. Evisceration needs crit damage and then crit rate gear, as well as some more Accuracy+ to consider
For Exenterator, just stack AGI/ACC/ATT as it doesn't crit and doesn't scale well with WSD. Rudra's is your bread and butter WS, strong both stacked and unstacked, but you need attack buffs to really pump out any cool numbers. In a scenario where you have to deal without attack buffs, Mandalic, which has a native attack boost to it, can outpace Rudra's. This is true in general, but especially is with an augmented mythic.
If you are just a mule/new THF looking to be better than worthless. Toss on your Tauret/Shijo and spam Evisceration while SCing with SA or TA Rudras.
TP Sets
THF sets by Spicyryan.
- I wanted to make up some good tiered TP sets for THF. The following tries to balance progression while avoiding pointless time sinks like augmenting full sets of skirmish weapons and armor.
TP Sets last Updated: --Spicyryan (talk) 23:30, 8 October 2018 (EDT), last I went balls deep into this, but I have addedSOME updates otherwise.
I will state when I find this to be overall satisfactory for the sets as a whole. I have too many other guides to focus on in the meantime. Otherwise, these sets aren't far off at worst.
TP sets abide with the following criteria: | ||
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TP Accuracy Sets
Based off of the Max Tier set.
Accuracy sets last updated: --Spicyryan (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2019 (EDT)
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DT Sets
Philosophy: There is no universal best set. So, if you aren't going to make more than one DT set then stop reading this guide.
- While you can get very granular, IMO at the very least, you should have a capped DT set, a hybrid set, and and a decent idle DT set.
- I know people won't like it, but Moonlight Ring always seems to lose out in a full DT set.
- Gaining 2 more PDT instead with Gelatinous lets you shift pieces around to ultimately make a better set. This turns what is a very good ring on its own into a generally subpar choice for an overall build. I would say that rings make or break entire sets.
- I see this over and over and over again when I try to make DT sets for RUN too. Just my opinion though.
DT sets last updated: --Spicyryan (talk) 19:39, 19 October 2020 (EDT)
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Goal is to keep the highest DPS with the most reasonable DT gains without going too high.
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Random Evasion Cap Numbers
These numbers are educated guesses, but probably aren't far off.
Any data anyone wishes to provide would be helpful.
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WHO LIKES NITPICKING?! . . Kicking?! Oh! I wanna do some kicking!
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WS Sets
WS Sets by Spicyryan
WS Sets last Updated: --Spicyryan (talk) 22:22, 22 November 2021 (EST)
Rudras
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Evisceration
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Exenterator
Aeolian
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Mercy Bite
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Misc Sets
Sets last updated: --Spicyryan (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2020 (EDT)
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You know, cuz sometimes enmity matters.
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